There has been a long, multi-thread running discussion at babble of Elizabeth May's answers to questions put to her by the Sisters of Saint Joseph about abortion and SSM.

About a quarter of the way down this thread, writer provides a transcript of the middle part of May's remarks:



writer has since moved the discussion over to this thread, in order to put it under FF discipline.

Thoughts?

There is a debate going on over there about the transcription of a single work, "reduced" as opposed to "induced," but so far no one has reacted to this as I would:



And that is from a woman who says she is not a polarizer.

PS: It's not even the disagreement of number I'm objecting too, although that is regrettable too.

Well obviously, and just for starters, she is suffering desperately from lack of imagination.
Not to be ageist or anything, but isn't she in her 50s?

Sounds like the "new feminist lingo" used by the anti choice crowd.

If this is how she works at not polarizing she better never have anything to do with diplomacy positions.

Yikes! WTF???

A frivolous right? A FUCKING FRIVOLOUS right!?!?!

Damn right a woman has the right to choose, whether or not Betty thinks that might be frivolous of her to do so.

Wow. That is the first time that I have seen such utilitarian arguments 'in support" of access to abortion.

Yes. That's the sentence that leapt out at me too. (And not just for the gaffe.)

I would prefer to believe this instead: No one in her right mind is for forcing a woman to carry on with a pregancy she does not want.

No matter how woman-friendly, child-friendly, contraception-friendly we manage to make our society, there will be accidental, unintended pregnancies. There will be rape and other forms of coerced sex.

I hate this 'abortion is terrible but necessary until we make the world perfect' shtick.

Abortion is not terrible. It is a simple, safe procedure, when done early and properly. I've had dental appointments more traumatic.

And abortion is certainly not a tragedy. Forcing an unwilling woman to become an incubator, that's tragedy.

Born 1954.

I might not have a problem -- might not, I said -- with a politician who made a simple public statement about keeping her/his private beliefs separate from her/his commitment to democratic principles ... and then stopped right there.

But she didn't stop. For me, she said 'way too much, made it clear that she pities entire classes of people, and that tells me too much about her potential in politics to allow me ever to support her.

Not so much "ageist" as "biologist".

It could be amusing to watch the wind-up Green cheerleaders try to spin this into the wisest opinion ever offered, and further proof that the Greens "deserve" a seat in the next televised debates.

Sounds pretty mealymouthed though. Seems to me she's pretty much saying that if her party formed government (:D) she wouldn't recriminalize abortion, but short of that, her support for it is nil. She's talking about abortion the way one might talk of a PCP addiction; it's bad, it's wrong, nobody should ever need it, but one cannot turn one's back on the tragic wretches all the same.

It's the Hillary Clinton position, actually. And oddly enough, May and Bill Clinton are old buddies -- May's mother got to know Bill when she first became an environmental activist. (? to be checked?)

I've never had an abortion, either, Liz. I have daughters , I have daughters-in-law, and I have granddaughters, and if the day comes when any of mine need an abortion, don't you or the Sisters of Perpetual Misery ever try to interfere with their access to a clinic because I will drink your blood.

And I adore my grandkids. And , yes, abortion would mean I didn't get another grandkid. And I'm arstle enough I might shed a bucket of tears over that because I'm selfish and I don't always think straight.

Still, there's are reasons, cold ones, why I support Choice. Coat hangers are one reason, crochet hooks are another... and so are the dead bodies of desperate women who left weeping children orphaned.

You're trying to sit on the fence, Liz. The problem with that is, you get the picket right up the basic fundament.

I've never had an induced abortion, but I did miscarry early in an unwanted pregnancy - I sure as hell was going to have an abortion, but I was in a backwater in southern Italy and intended to divest myself of the foetus back home in Québec, or if anything prevented me from flying, in France. NO regret, only relief.

The thought of pregnancy and motherhood disgusted me profoundly.

May seems to think only women in extreme poverty or with hideously violent companions could possibly want to avoid the purported joys of motherhood. That is utter bullshit. I know some people - female and male - who have always wanted to be parents, including some young people who, alas, have to put off such plans due to a lack of money and job security. But more than a few of us have never been there.

To my mind, that is like telling people that they have to be straight, or gay, or prefer blond or dark hair and complexions... MYOFB.

Don't throw your false pity at me, Lizzie. My abortion was my choice, my entirely non-frivolous right (wtf are "frivolous" rights anyway?!?) and no, making a responsible, reasonable decision about my reproductive capacity did not reduce me in any way.

I don't know why anyone still is under the illusion that the Greens are a left-wing party. They want voluntary business-negotiated "solutions" on the environment (when even the CEOs say only legal sanction will make them act), they invited the bloody Fraser Institute to write their economic policy and now Lizzie May is waxing on how "tragic" I (and other women like myself) are for taking care of ourselves when we had a problem. I'm not saying the Greens shouldn't run - Red Tories need a home, too - but no one should delude themselves into thinking the Canadian Greens are a left wing party.

Man, this pisses me off. May's view like Clinton's, is offensive to women and an affront to reproductive freedom.

Green is NOT progressive. I agree absolutely, kuri. Let us get this message out. Think Green is progressive? Read May on abortion. Tell all your women friends.

I really really want to stop this 'abortion is terrible' thing. I really really want to take back the word 'choice'. I really really want to slap upside the head anyone who says letting the anti-abortion gang have equal time or equal resources is a matter of free speech.

How can we do this?

Well, "abortion is great" might be a hard sell, simply because even minor medical procedures can be unpleasant and have slight risks, but abortion rights are a wonderful thing, a great historic victory for women and a kick in the teeth of those who want to condemn us to unwanted pregnancy, childbearing and childrearing or, that failing, guilt us about not necessarily wanting such a destiny.

Ah, yes, the Fraser Institute, that bastion of self reliance, that tower of free enterprise, that group which stomps with both feet on any sort of subsidy...except the ones given to it by governments who want to privatize everything.

I am halfway to convinced that if the abortion service clinics were privatized and making a profit all this fucking blether would cease. I have no idea if Liz has kids, it's really none of my business, but I'm starting to get a tad testy about these uninvolved, untouched, unthreatened dweebs who think my grandgrrls uterii are any business of theirs. You do not even have my permission to think about the reproductive organs or abilities of any of mine.

Notice the use of the possessive when I refer to my treasures. You're damned right they are mine! Not in the sense that I own them, god help anyone who tries to own independent Emily or unbelievably brave Lilli! But they are mine in that I owe them everything I am capable of providing for them, and that includes access to safe medical procedures if ever THEY think they need them.

The Greens have seemed to me to be opportunistic for many reasons, and their economic and monetary ideas have seemed to me to be suspect and murky. But this open pandering to a religious group which has no stake in what is being discussed is a new low.

Go home, Liz. You're pissing me off and you're a threat to my babes.

Get a grip, Lizzie! There is no middle-of-the-road position on this one. Certainly not your "weeping-over-the-tragedy-of-abortion" sop.

Planned Parenthood has been firmly and unequivocally pro-choice for decades. 'Every child a wanted child' is not that difficult a concept to grasp. It supports women's right to access birth control AND abortion.

In anticipation of the anti-choice argument that some women do not take responsibility for their sexual behaviour, blah-blah-blah, yes that does happen. So they should be punished by being forced to carry a pregnancy to term? Is there a comparable 'punishment' for men who are equally irresponsible?

My life experience is such that an early miscarriage in my twenties was a great relief and an abortion in my thirties was a thoughtful decision that I have never regretted. I once thought that there could be no harm in acknowledging that choosing abortion might be a sad event for some women. But now I see that recognizing those feelings can and it will be used as a weapon to control all women by the likes of politicians like Elizabeth May.

"Moral dilemma?"

I don't choose to see it that way, but she obviously does and that's the problem. Imposing morality is wrong. Period.

Not only that, but what a way to view children: as a punishment for sexual promiscuity. It's seriously bizarre that in one breath the anti-choice is extolling the "universal" virtues of motherhood and in the next breath waxing on the "justice" of forced pregnancy as punishment for sex.

I don't regret my choice either. I don't suffer guilt or trauma because of it. I wasn't reduced or induced to make my choice. I made a practical decision based on the realities of my life at that time.

I think Michelle has handled the greenie nitwits on babble incredibly well. She gets props from me. The post about fetuses and facial expression made me swallow my tongue in rage and she shut 'em down.

I knew there was a reason the Greens gave me the creeps. Besides therie constant high fiving and Borglike speak a number of the regular green contigent on babble proved they are to the right, not progressive. the complaints of censorship was very FDesque.

I agree with what you're all saying as a criticism of this woman because I am passionately pro-choice.

But at the same time I've also got to say that there is one part of her argument that I think that might work in the public dialogue about abortion a little better.

To say that there might be a question about the morality of abortion, but there shouldn't be a question about the legality of abortion is an argument that makes sense to me, and I find it's really useful about opening a dialogue with people on the other side of the fence. Abortion is such a complicated issue that I'm fine with it if people want to discuss the morality of it until they're blue in the face as long as the legality remains sacrosanct.

That women will die horrific deaths without access to abortion is a given. And that right there defines the morality of the law that gives women access to abortions as absolutely correct.

But as to whether abortions are entirely moral I don't know for sure. For a long time I never questioned that they were, but then when I was in university I read an article in my philosophy of ethics class that actually made me think about the pro-life side. For a fraction of a second I could see why one might have that position, and to me that was a good thing. There definitely some greys in the issue because it is so complicated, and I think that it's OK to admit that. Being willing to see the grey doesn't make us any less pro-choice, it makes us more so, because even with a titch of doubt, even with an understanding of the other position we are still for ours.

I think that when you are working towards social change it is important to hold on as hard as you can to your questioning spirit. It's a good thing to have a little seed of doubt and questioning even when you're arguing for your side. Because dangerous things happen when human beings believe that they are absolutely right. It's that tendency towards being dogmatic that we should avoid. Because all of us have it in us to be dogmatic about things (even though we usually think of the tendency towards being dogmatic as something that belongs more to the religious right, we have it too).

When I was pregnant I wanted to holler, "NO UTERUS, NO OPINION" at the world whenever the topic of choice came up. I wanted to say that if you don't have a uterus you should just SHUT THE HELL UP about abortion because you have NO IDEA what you're talking about, and you will never understand what it is like to be pregnant and give birth. But as hilarious as that urge of mine was, I don't think that it is an ethically correct opinion because I'm still also for free speech, even if it's a man talking about something he can never understand.

Well that's the nail in the coffin for me. I'll be working hard to negate the greens now.

edited out because I seem to have double posted by mistake.

edited - double post - oh-oh.

Huh! I've seen double posts before, but not like that. A double-double! How Canadian.

Fer xistsssakes, abortion is NOT complicated. It is incredibly simple. Until I can somehow 'think' myself unpregnant, I do not have complete control of my body. I am human. I must have complete control of my body. Abortion is my right. Easy peasy, no?

And by the way, thanks for that link to the babble thread, skdadl. It contains some outstanding examples of not getting it.

It does fit into a view of the madonna/whore dichotomy. Their view of the world: Bad woman has 'irresponsible' sex. Bad woman gets pregnant. Bad woman is forced to carry pregnancy. Bad woman becomes good woman, redeemed by her exalted status of motherhood or for providing baby to childless couple.

Repent! Repent! - the hidden and subliminal agenda of the Greens.

You trashed your world .... now you're going to pay for it.

And who says life is "sacred"? Explain to me, please, what makes you think any particular life, or life form, is more "sacred" than any other.

When these compulsory pregnancy wingnuts organize anti-war demonstrations with the same ferocity with which they organize anti-choice anti-woman demonstrations I'll be impressed. When they show up in noisy numbers to demonstrate against the arms dealers I'll be more willing to listen to them. When they stop voting for the guys who are willing to fight to the last drop of everybody else's blood I might feel more inclined to give them some respect.

If life is "sacred" why aren't they raising hell about the 150,000 dead Iraqis, mainly women and children, who have been blown to grue by the great warbird from warshington? If life is "sacred" why aren't they beggaring themselves in order to support the starving around the world.

Life isn't "sacred", not to them, not to most of the consumers. Life is cheap. Life is wasted in pursuit of oil, life is squandered while arms dealers get richer , life is bartered, sold, destroyed for profit. And those who mewl and blether about abortion being the slaughter of innocents should look at what awaits those innocents should they come to term and be born unwanted.

Most of what comes out of the mouths of the anti-woman anti-choice crowd is just cheap emotionalism, more worthy of an afternoon soap opera than any kind of discourse or reasoned debate. To me, many of them parrot this shite as a way to hide the fact they are really cavalierly unconcerned about the mess to which their lifestyle is contributing.

If life is so fekkin sacred why are so many of the anti-woman anti-choice crowd voting for Dubya and Harpoon? Their crocodile tears are disgusting, their hypocrisy is evident.

Or the imagination of a fallen-woman melodrama. reduce?

As skdadl notes, But in the context, I don't think it makes a big difference which word she used, as her whole theme was that abortion should only be a desperate last resort.

I used to be involved in the BC Green Party, and I'm pretty sure most of the people I worked with there would have been appalled by May's statements. It will be interesting to see how many Green supporters speak out in public about this.

Y'know, every time I read that expression "nobody in their [sic] right mind," I just feel like throwing up.

Elizabeth May knows what a "right mind" is?!? And feels she can impose her version of it on others?!?

I find this so infuriating. It is a feminist issue first of all, but beyond that, it is a question of protecting ordinary, vulnerable human beings from the control freaks who would understand insanity better if they just looked in a mirror.

That's what stuck with me, too, and it made me more angry the more I thought about it. I blogged this, but the post largely mirrors what I said here.

At EM I speculated: very few. Anyone want to bet against that?

She paints women who choose to have an abortion as helpless and deserving of pity and that the decent thing is to provide a safe procedure for those unfortunates -- how very fucking progressive Lizzy, NOT. Also, I am told that the Green party wants to promote policies that reduce the need for abortion

I wasn't always fully prepared to drink their blood. I started out as someone who really thought we could have meaningful dialogue and if all else failed, politely agree we disagreed.

I have never in my life insisted one of "them" have an abortion. I have never grabbed one of those noisy busybody men, for example , and insisted he get an abortion, nor have I insisted any woman be MADE to undergo the procedure.

I figure, all things considered, I've been pretty considerate, and even somewhat rational.

They, however, would gladly and enthusiastically prevent any woman regardless of circumstances from having an abortion. Clinics have been torched and bombed, providers have been harrassed, threatened and even killed.

because life is "sacred" you see.

I wasn't originally quite prepared to accompany friends or family to a clinic and ram my cane up someones' bung in order to steer them out of the way. I wasn't originally prepared to take a can of bear spray with me and use it if threatened.

"You made me what I am today, I hope you're satisfied"..........

And Liz... fer chrissakes take a pill or something. Chill out. You might wind up with the Sisters of Perpetual Agony voting for you but you're losing ten times that number of votes.

Which, actually , is just fine by me.

And I sincerely hope nobody you hold dear ever has to resort to a wire coat hanger.

Terrific post, chick.

Really. I'm too tired to do it justice, but that was well done.

What? Are they planning to do an exit poll as women leave the abortion clinics?

"Excuse me, ma'am - I am here on behalf of the Green Party who would like to know what socioeconomopolitical reason reduced you ... sorry, make that induced you to take this crazy - you're out your mind, right? - last resort which our leader would have talked you out of had we known which policy to promote that would have stopped you from coming to this clinic, not that it's a problem if your only other option is to have been reduced, darn there's that word again scratch that, I mean induced to using a coat hanger?

What's that .... You want me to repeat the question? No, you want me to stuff my clipboard up the disposal sphincter of my personal composting unit?"

Over on the babble thread in the FF, one of her ardent proponents is going to email her with a few questions and report back. That will be interesting.

Well done, sweetheart. Make yourself a cup of tea, soak yourself in a tub of hot bubble-rich water and remember, you aren't alone. Ya done good today!

Many a time when listening to pro-lifers ramble on about the "potential Einsteins" aborted, I have wanted to interject, "and what of the potential abortion doctors?"

Thanks, skdadl and Anne, for the comments.

I was curious, so I went to the Green Party website and searched for the word 'abortion'. Here's the only hit. Bold mine.



http://www.greenparty.ca/index.php?modu ... le&view=84

There is no other mention of abortion rights. Other planks in the Women's section include the usual platitudes about violence against women, pay equity, blah blah blah.